Friday, March 12, 2010

When you're in a hole stop digging

Stoat, of course, has trademarked IOPgate, and Eli is looking on with interest, when his attention was gathered by a comment from J Bowers, who has been quite active on the matter pointing to the latest CYA from the IOP. The Rabett's eyes fell upon this interesting sentence at the end of the article

"We asked the energy sub-group of our Science Board to prepare the evidence, based on its analysis of material that is in the public domain following the hacking of the CRU e-mails last year," says the IOP. "
The IOP has several groups (let alone subgroups) that would have been more appropriate, such as the Environmental Physics Group, the Molecular Physics Group (take Eli's word for it, he knows some of these scientists. The Bunny knows that taking the word of a stuffed animal is a stretch, but he hopes that a certain level of trust has been established here), the Physics and Law Group, etc., as well as having many prominent members who are far more informed on the matters that Parliament is considering than the "energy subgroup".

We know that the IOP statement was drafted by Peter Gill, from the "energy subgroup" a nutjob who has signed onto every climate denialist crankcase known to lagormorpha. The question is who recruited this wacko, and if he was recruited to do the drive by with the collateral damage to the IOP's reputation, why is that person still working for the IOP? If, on the other hand, Gill showed up at the door with his piece of trash who was stupid enough to sign for it and why is she still working for the IOP?

Clearly the "energy subgroup" is an incubus in the corporate bosom ranking right up there with the "gravity doesn't exist" bunch and "quantum mechanics is a socialist plot" subgroups.

The IOP needs clearly explain what happened and take action to repair the damage to its reputation.



Anonymous said...

From IOP website:

"The Institute also says it "strongly rebuts" accusations of “being overly influenced by one ‘climate-change sceptic’ on the energy sub-group, and then of a lack of openness about the authorship of our evidence". It adds that "The individual in question had no significant influence on the preparation of the evidence. Responsibility for the evidence rests with our Science Board, whose members’ names are openly available on our website.""

Uh then the board admits that it agrees with Peter Gill, a "denialist crankcase'. Had they to agreed then they would have had to have made some substantial changes to the draft. Is there a copy of the drat out there is cyberspace somewhere? If not, can someone please request that we see it?


Anonymous said...

Oh good grief, my typing is awful! Corrigendum to above @10:59

"Had they NOT agreed then they would have had to have made some substantial changes to the draft. Is there a copy of the DRAFT out there IN cyberspace somewhere?"


Anonymous said...

But what about the trick? What about the trick? What about the trick? What about the trick?

Rat 1

dhogaza said...

"But what about the trick? What about the trick? What about the trick? What about the trick?"

You need to pay her first.

mike roddy said...

Good one, dhogaza!

And good writing from you today, Eli. I'm always bitching about scientists who are too geeky and abstract to communicate, but maybe the people we need for this job have been hiding under our noses the whole time.

bluegrue said...

of material that is in the public domain
Huh?!?!?!? Of course the e-mails are all over the net. But public domain?!? How can anyone acquire ownership of stolen good?

Hank Roberts said...

> ... we sympathise with the way in
> which CRU researchers have been
> confronted with hostile requests
> for information ...

-- someone at the IOP, in the Guardian.

People sometimes do say exactly what they really mean, even when they're trying to obfuscate.

amoeba said...

Re: "What about the trick?"
"You need to pay her first."

Rent-rats can be male or female!

Thomas Palm said...

Does this mean that as soon as a song or movie finds it way to piratebay it is in the public domain? I think the media industry has to come down hard on IOP to prevent this from becoming a precedent.

Anonymous said...

Loved that one, dhogaza!


yea-mon said...

The funny thing, as I pointed out over at Stoat, is that the IoP Science Board only seems to have one Sub-group - the Energy one.

The perils of overspecialization?

Anonymous said...

High all Rabbits... here is some; more-is-better-with-Science, stuff from down under.

Trix, Trix, Trix... You silly rabbits are so open-minded about your world, you know, the one you all are saving from us; the unwashed masses of people. You folks just have to know everything about everything before you can enjoy the outdoors... You all, see yourselves as gods. Oh, how wrong you all are. You don't even like starlings, because they live like barbarians. Right Eli? Don't be a slug, smile at "Betrug"
I am still waiting for your German Lesson. Can't wait...

Gotta Fly, bye-bye

Anonymous said...

"Stoat, of course, has trademarked IOPgate,"

You just want a place on William's new boat when the sea level rise is more than expected

Little Mouse
Mouse number 776281

Andy Mayhew said...

"analysis of material that is in the public domain"

In other words, as I suspected from the start, they read a few newspapers and blogs and based their statement on the misinformation and lies contained therein.

Anonymous said...

(No need to publish this.) I had to look up your word, because I'd never seen it before, so I'm not claiming any expertise, but it seems, for your future reference, that the word you want is "lagomorpha", not "lagormorpha".


Anonymous said...

Andy Mayhew said...

"analysis of material that is in the public domain"

In other words, as I suspected from the start, they read a few newspapers and blogs and based their statement on the misinformation and lies contained therein.

That about sums it up.

Anonymous said...

"In other words, as I suspected from the start, they read a few newspapers and blogs and based their statement on the misinformation and lies contained therein."

That information would be copyrighted too as been observed above, unless explicitly licensed as PD - so what did they look at?


Steve Carson said...

On a totally different topic -

Prof. Rabett, how do I get on your blogroll? I appeared - I use the term advisedly because it may be a coincidence - to have reached "most favored nation status" when you posted a comment about CO2 and included a link from my humble blog,

The post was and the link you provided was to CO2 - An Insignificant Trace Gas? Part Six - Visualization which showed the Evans and Puckrin result of downward longwave radiation.

John Farley said...

Climate scientists petition in support of IPCC.
Stephen Schneider and many many others.

Anonymous said...

First it was NASA, that needed the help of Hollywood FX'ers, now AGW goes to Bollywood. Who needs any more stinkin science... Right wabbits, check it out.

Sleep tight, don't let the Betrug bugs bite! At least you will be hanging with your funders.


J Bowers said...

"First it was NASA.."

?? Please don't tell us you mean the Moon landings were hoaxed...

J Bowers said...

Eli, thanks for going over to the IoP comments, even though I'm apparently a religous fundie. I've also yet to get an answer from Steven Mosher, I see.

Mark said...

"First it was NASA.." I hope he isn't referring to Capricorn One? I did have one sceptic cite the Challenger accident as evidence of NASA's fallibility. The depths of denial are approaching bottom.

Anonymous said...

Hare you go rabbits... Think for a moment... Why go to Hollywood for FX? Are'nt the scientists from NASA smart enough to do this important work? The first story on this leads with: "The original recordings of the first humans landing on the moon 40 years ago were erased and re-used, but newly restored copies of the original broadcast look even better, NASA officials said on Thursday." they also say: "The good news is we found where they went. The bad news is they were part of a batch of 200,000 tapes that were degaussed." Now they look better than ever says Holywood and Nasa. Have any of you rabbits ever degaussed a cassett, not much left of the original is there? All these good ideas from the 'big brains' was to save money...& SPACE. Would'nt you know? Dateline on this story is 7/16/2009. Check it out.

The CRU threw out their hard copy weather reports to save SPACE, once they moved to their new building at EAU.

The CIA tapes over the Oswald meeting with the Russians in Mexico City back in 1962, to save money & SPACE, the agency just taped over the reels...

Now; why don't you wabbits, open your own eyes and ears and look around. Do you folks live in holes? I am starting to wonder...

Num Me Vexo

EliRabett said...

Depends on how much money you are willing to spend to recover the information.

Oh yeah, tape was expensive and it got re-used. Tough.

JohnMashey said...

J Bowers: you are doing noble work at IOP ... but fighting with serious Dunning_Kruger afflictees gets tiring. I usually stop as soon as I recognize it.

J Bowers said...

"The CRU threw out their hard copy weather reports to save SPACE, once they moved to their new building at EAU.

The CIA tapes over the Oswald meeting with the Russians in Mexico City back in 1962, to save money & SPACE, the agency just taped over the reels..."

Call Fox Mulder.

Meanwhile, back on Planet Earth, page 17 adds a little perspective:

J Bowers said...

@ John Mashey: Well, the dog-whistle over at WUWT explains a lot ;) The Betroffenheitstrolls are the tricky ones.

Anonymous said...

Mr. Bowers, NASA moon mission---Dept. Health and Human Services; to you there is no difference?

Over 150 years of people entering data onto logs; thrown out... not even put up for auction? Smart move CRU!

What do you think it cost the taxpayers to pay for these tapes, special ASA film etc.; very special stuff, custom crafted... Loaded on Apollo Moon Mission Spacecraft and then taken to the moon and back... How much did it cost us to tape this and film these missions per pound of equipment sent? Aircraft carriers to pick the stuff up...It was not cheap at all. All of it one of a kind and NASA says "we should of had a historian to tell us to save it". Tough says Eli... I ask who hired these people & why have'nt they been fired yet?

I don't uses clever names when the word, stupid; fills the void.

After tapes have been degaussed, how much of the origional signal is still on the tapes do you think? You are scientists, you should have the information at your fingertips... I bet is was one, big ass degausser too. I wonder if you will tell us the answer?

This should keep you wabbits hopping for awhile... Gotta fly, by-by

Lazar said...

Starling reminds me of the fox. The startling discovery is that government-run institutions tend to have bad management, wasteful practices, and bizarre priorities. Still public sector scientists managed to develop quantum mech. and send men to the moon. Anytime starling is offered an MRI scan s/he is free to refuse. To the loss of humanity's inheritance, the birds are silent over the acidifying oceans and blasted mountaintops, it's those wascally scientists doing all the warbling. Lost data or no, there'll be a denial machine confusing some of the public today and tomorrow, and there'll be a need for scientists to communicate through and beyond.

Lazar said...

You silly rabbits are so open-minded about your world, you know, the one you all are saving from us; the unwashed masses of people.

2010: Populist demagoguery saves civilization from science predicting environmental collapse

2050: Environmental collapse, along with civilization

Who to trust... who to trust...

Regards from a member of the great unwashed

Anonymous said...

Lazar, I learned when I was just 20years old, that whiz kids & generals don't know shit. Yet they had no problem killing us for their 'bright' ideas; those days cost the country a bunch of lives & money too. I trust myself. You guys understand "quantum" stuff do you? I am an 'outsider' according to PNS. A fundie or Poe, using your cool lingo. Think about this and get back to me if your light goes on, OK? In the Bible, II Peter 3:8; Peter says that 1 day in heaven is equal to 1000 years on the Earth. He is firm on this. If I use the Hebrew 360 day + 5 if you like... I come up with 360,000 rotations of the Earth = 1 Day in Heaven. One second in heaven is 4.1667 rotations on Earth. If this causes a change of our perceived relative size to the speed of light, what happens? Perhaps the LHC is very small, atoms even smaller than we currently believe. I am not sure at what point mass becomes unmeasurable but if "we" are already small, we will never be able to find the "God Particle". Interesting thought though, don't you think? I don't have the answer to this question but when I play with the numbers that come out of the exercise: I sure smile a lot. Some day I will meet the light that is holding all of this together. You folks can too. In the Bible see SOP @ I Corinthians 15:1-4. So simple. No cost overruns either:) starling-bye-bye

EliRabett said...

Reads just like the Economist, say if A then B, and if B maybe C, without getting toooooo deep into A being nonsense. Come on.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous starling,

On planet Earth, Dunning-Kruger Chapter 1: "But I wore the juice", would seem appropriate.

Random Mouse

Anonymous said...

Eli, just drop three zero's (-,000)

The Earth: 25,000 miles in circumference, becomes: 25 heavenly miles in circumference.

The speed of light goes from 186,000 M/P/S to: 186 H/M/P/S

The Sun is 93,000,000 miles from the Earth... 93,000 H/M from the Earth.

If a cubit(18") is equal to a millimeter and Christ was six feet tall on Earth... In Heaven he might be about a half a mile high to us: relative to our size today as we see things.

You can't see it Eli? Seems pretty straight-forward to me. I am just using a old HP-41c calculator, simple math, what is the hang up? You are not a rabbit, you know...?:) Play with it! Have some fun for a change.

Gotta fly

Lazar said...


I learned when I was just 20years old, that whiz kids & generals don't know shit. Yet they had no problem killing us for their 'bright' ideas

There are caves in remote and still savage parts of the world that are free of every comfort and security wrought by the hands of whiz kids and generals. I don't see the great unwashed queuing to get in.

Some smart people were wrong, so let's bury our heads in the sand? No thanks. Life isn't nasty brutish and short as it was three hundred years ago, then five hundred, worse a thousand.

By the way, when I was around 20 years I learned that I didn't know shit, though I thought otherwise. I still thank my lucky stars today.

Anonymous said...

Lazar, Nowadays I only want to know who came out of the sepulcher, near the heart of Jerusalem, not visit caves in Afghanistan for the new Whiz-Kids and their generals. You can enlist to serve your country in combat, you love this land & it's people; right? They are looking for men... do you qualify? You seem smart? Is Vietnam better with the whiz-kid and westy gone? How about the other 58,000 friends of mine? As De Gaul said "the cemeteries of the world are filled with indispensable men". You hang on to your "Lucky Star". I am looking forward to meeting the Son. You should get to know Him, after all these years:) It seems that in times like this; Barney Frank and Tim Geitner are smarter than the rest of us dogs. You know how these folks talk to the citizens, we are not worthy of thought. We are only worthy of paying taxes & for Israel's walls and housing; these same people won't allow us the 10 Commandments to be hung in our Courthouses across the know; that dang "separation of church and state" thing. I don't know how we can then turn around and give a trillion dollars over the years to less than 7,000,000 Jewish believers & Zionists, a quasi-religious nation? What is a nation, no; the world to do? If Revelation 10, is speaking about the last stage of the Age of Grace, and the seven thunders are seven world lies given to mankind denying the power of God(AGW, Man-Made-Global-Warming; Moon Landing, Evolution, etc...)? By the time we get to verse 6, "that there should be time no longer." If you do a study of what it is saying it would read today as "let there no longer be any delay." Then in verse 7:), I think I know who he is... What is: three score and ten vs. eternity? You will smile or laugh at my views but they carry water... Trust the One, not 'O's.

You know me, by-by

Lazar said...

Who would have thought a little bird would have such heavy thoughts.

Is Vietnam better with the whiz-kid and westy gone?

Well, the government murdered the whiz-kids en masse and the great unwashed starved in an agrarian utopia. By the late 80s the government realized communism sucked. Whiz-kids and westy returned; surprise the starvation stopped and living standards rose. Now many more Vietnamese have a chance at decent education.

How about the other 58,000 friends of mine?

Maybe you'd have preferred communism trod across SE Asia. But I wonder how many tens of millions more indispensable men, women, and children would have been lost.

I've seen people close to me die, including the much too young. The best one can hope for is to leave the world by one's actions in a better state than one found it. I think that is true for the 58,000 honorable souls. YMMV.

I am looking forward to meeting the Son.

Now that's better. I hope you do.

You should get to know Him, after all these years:)

Has it been that long already.

You will smile or laugh at my views

I think you're nuts. Love ya'.

Trust the One, not 'O's.

I trust Reality the great arbiter, not myself nor you.

deepclimate said...

Latest on IOP:

Terri Jackson, IOP Energy Group “founder” and a key proponent of various IOP pro-skeptic initiatives, is using her past association with the group to advance her new career as a “climate realist”. Her IOP affiliation is hammered in every interview and profile, and was listed with her signature to the 2009 Copenhagen Climate Challenge open letter to the U.N. Not only that, it’s the sole affiliation given for her upcoming stint as featured speaker at – wait for it – the upcoming Heartland Institute sponsored climate conference in Chicago, where Jackson will join U.K. contrarian heavyweights like Piers Corbyn and Lord Christopher Monckton.

Meanwhile, disturbing indications have emerged that the IOP submission may have been leaked in advance to Monckton, raising new questions about the legitimacy of the submission and the process behind it. It’s high time the IOP stopped clinging to the pretense that all is well and started cleaning up this mess.

Anonymous said...

Good morning, Lazar
I have read the Book and understand that it is 'your world after all'. We all have faith in something don't we? Even if you were to be an atheist; it is a faith you have developed; based on what I do not know?... Just for clarity, The wiz-kid was R.S.McNamara. Westy is general westy... We were 'grunts'(baby green...) How is Laos doing? Still picking cluster-bomb-parts out of their bodies from what I read today. Of course we were never there... Pol Pot, was a history teacher and all the other teachers at his school thought he was real smart...what do you think was going on then, that put him in power? Let us not forget Dow Chem.'s great contribution to mankind; Agent Orange...paid for with taxpayer money and still working in their fields today. I read that just before his assassination in 1963, JFK had signed an order to remove MACV out of the RVN, the country ended up with a mess and for what? So that the United States would drop the draft, allowing the NWO folks to use our Defense Dept. as their own Foreign Legion...Neo-con's--- get it? Just like the guy on tv that swindled everybody out of a bunch of money in TN, icon:)~neo con(new con). Right in the face... From left to right-New World Order NWO. Now from right to left OWN, I bet these smart folks laugh over simple stuff like this. Anyway Lazar I am probably taking too much of your time here? We know there are two sides in this struggle, it makes sense. Think about what has been written here; then trust in Christ---the Bible, is all about Him. This is not like science where you read a book and trust 'it'. You read the word of God and the Holy Spirit will work a miracle in Your life, it is a promise of the Bible. Faith before understanding. Once you walk in faith you will 'know'. Ephesians 1:9-14, lays out the process but you will find that if you input, the Holy Spirit will output back at ya... Keep the faith baby... I gotta duff

Anonymous said...

The 7 Trumpets of Revelation

EliRabett said...

Eli prefers Bix, Louis, and anybody playing the Hayden trumpet concerto

Anonymous said...

Good morning Eli, You must have fixed the thermometer on your living room wall... just what was the Global Temp., when you got up today? It seems as if some scientists were paying attention to my idea a few weeks ago and did something about cutting costs...

steveta_uk (04:31:35) :

After reading some of the “random walk” posts recently, I thought I’d try a little experiment, which consisted of writing a bit of C code which generated pseudo-temperature records, based on a random +- 0.1 annual deviation from the previous year, centered around 15C, and with a bias factor that made the temperature drift towards 15C if it starts drifting away.

So this 15-minute job produced 10,000 years of temperature records which I imported into a spreadsheet and drew some pictures.

There’s basically with a boring average close to 15, and lots of apparent noise between 13 and 17C. But zoom in a bit, and you see features like little ice ages, medieval warm periods, “hockey stick” features, and all sorts.

And apply some of the trend analysis functions to selected parts of the “noise” and it finds all sorts of things.

And it’s all random.

Makes sense to me... gotta fly

EliRabett said...

Thanks Steve, now run a second set to model the stratospheric temperature @ 30 km, and find the places where the two records anti-correlate, then a third record for Arctic warming, and that one should show double the warming of the first one (while, of course, anticorrelating with the second).

The point is that there is always some probability of matching a single parameter, but when a theory predicts several, you have to get your random mice moving in the same direction.

Lazar said...


I dunno. Many have tried to pull their selves out of the swamp of nothingness with a tangle of words... Sure everyone believes an a priori something or other. When I get up in the morning, I believe that the laws of physics are roughly what they were the evening... seems to stop me getting squished by traffic. It works for me. Whatever works for you. I don't care too much about what is best or right or wrong. More so, what do people want, and how do they intend to get it. If it makes you happy, but please don't tread on feet. I like the world to have space. Space for high-techies and metropolises, and for caves for hermit thrushes, and for wilderness for the planet. When belief systems compete, things get muddled, there is much heat and no light. These things aren't comparable. For me, experience comes before belief and understanding. Why would I dispute, and how could I dispute, your personal experience of faith. Even Reality sometimes holds my hand. Similarly, I could not find faith based claims as refutation of empirical work.

Anonymous said...

High Rabbits?:)..., I am leaving an nice piece of green for yall... Don't forget that even Phil Jones, knew about the verses in Job 37:14-24, when he posted them in an FOIA email, with just a lite sneer at God's for his role in weather. Now some guy from Nasa sees the same thing... Wow, think of all the money we could have saved if some scientist had just read his Bible...) Thanks for telling the truth Dr. Dave.

[NASA's Dr. Dave Young] We know the things that can cause our climate to change. They include changes in the intensity of the sun, and increases in heat-trapping gases such as carbon dioxide in our atmosphere. What we want to learn is how the Earth responds to these driving forces, and any other secondary feedback effects that might occur. For example, say the Earth responds to increases in carbon dioxide levels by warming up; a warmer planet causes more water to evaporate and increases the amount of certain types of clouds. Clouds could either accelerate or slow down subsequent global warming. By taking very accurate energy measurements from space over a long period of time, we'll be able to measure these responses and feedbacks on decade-long timescales.

Starling's gotta book, Betrug bugs are popping out, all over the place-

Anonymous said...

Sea of Green-
Springtime comes; snap

Alicia Pendergrass said...

Oh good grief, my typing is awful! Corrigendum to above @10:59 "Had they NOT agreed then they would have had to have made some substantial changes to the draft. Is there a copy of the DRAFT out there IN cyberspace somewhere?" ML