tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post2759241212587378593..comments2024-03-18T03:27:18.777-04:00Comments on Rabett Run: For Those Concerned About the Japanese Nuclear ReactorsEliRabetthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07957002964638398767noreply@blogger.comBlogger199125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-29553479503918593312014-09-01T14:01:57.746-04:002014-09-01T14:01:57.746-04:00http://www.nap.edu/catalog.php?record_id=18294http://www.nap.edu/catalog.php?record_id=18294Hank Robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07521410755553979665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-39660548994012936592014-09-01T13:58:34.364-04:002014-09-01T13:58:34.364-04:00Cheer up, things could be worse (both in Japan and...Cheer up, things could be worse (both in Japan and in the rest of the nuclear powered countries):<br /><br />http://news.stanford.edu/news/2014/june/fukushima-crisis-kan-062514.htmlHank Robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07521410755553979665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-33000296987810321622011-03-22T23:47:02.401-04:002011-03-22T23:47:02.401-04:00dhogaza said: Which has actually been happening fo...dhogaza said: <i>Which has actually been happening for a couple if days, unless you accept the Japanese "we're cool" assessment vs. the US (invited) overflights showing highly radiative plumes above the reactors.</i><br /><br />Except that was radioactivity beaming up from the spent fuel pools, not a plume of radioactive particles. In my silly head, "plume" conjures up big releases of radioactive materials such as the Chernobyl accident or an above-ground weapon test. Sorry about the misunderstanding. I agree it's likely the (extremely sensitive) detectors are picking up xenon-133 from the Fukushima "plume". Xenon-133 is also produced from normally functioning plants:<br /><br /><a href="http://www.sciencemag.org/content/192/4245/1235.abstract" rel="nofollow">Xenon-133: Ambient Activity from Nuclear Power Stations</a><br />"The average activity of xenon-133 within and at approximately 100 kilometers from Albany, New York, from April to July 1975 was 2.6 picocuries per cubic meter of air. The source was gaseous effluents from boiling water reactors located in the northeastern United States. Its 5.29-day half-life makes xenon-133 an appropriate isotope to observe for the study of regional and hemispheric dispersion of pollutants."<br /><br />@a_ray: yes, a "station blackout" is apparently considered one of the worst events for BWRs. Even though they have an incredible array of emergency cooling systems, loss of external power is a weak spot.seamushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04299590041498402002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-40502366351826395572011-03-22T22:06:12.829-04:002011-03-22T22:06:12.829-04:00a-ray-i-d-s. "the long list of other nuke ac...a-ray-i-d-s. "the long list of other nuke accidents ultimately attributable to human stupidity"<br /><br />Humans design these things, then other humans build them, and others operate them, and others manage them - and others own the whole she-bang. Yet other humans are assigned responsibility to regulate and enforce the regulations.<br /><br />Why people haven't yet worked out that some dangerous things are susceptible to the greed, silliness, stupidity, laziness and dishonesty of some people, regardless of their formal role, which thereby makes them even more dangerous is a mystery to me? <br /><br />I won't worry about conscientious, diligent, intelligent, honest, sensible people - apart from the fact that we simply cannot guarantee that everyone involved is that kind of person.adeladyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02019930864931919369noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-40411987052812924982011-03-22T16:49:01.496-04:002011-03-22T16:49:01.496-04:00dhogaza said: Which has actually been happening fo...dhogaza said: <i>Which has actually been happening for a couple if days, unless you accept the Japanese "we're cool" assessment vs. the US (invited) overflights showing highly radiative plumes above the reactors.</i><br /><br />Except that was radioactivity beaming up from the spent fuel pools, not a plume of radioactive particles. In my silly head, "plume" conjures up big releases of radioactive materials such as the Chernobyl accident or an above-ground weapon test. Which we know hasn't happened. Sorry for the misunderstanding. I agree it's likely the extremely sensitive detectors are picking up xenon-133 from the Fukushima "plume". Xenon-133 is also produced from normally functioning plants however.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.sciencemag.org/content/192/4245/1235.abstract" rel="nofollow">Xenon-133: Ambient Activity from Nuclear Power Stations</a><br />"The average activity of xenon-133 within and at approximately 100 kilometers from Albany, New York, from April to July 1975 was 2.6 picocuries per cubic meter of air. The source was gaseous effluents from boiling water reactors located in the northeastern United States. Its 5.29-day half-life makes xenon-133 an appropriate isotope to observe for the study of regional and hemispheric dispersion of pollutants."<br /><br />@a_ray: yes, a "station blackout" is apparently considered one of the worst events for BWRs. Even though they have an incredible array of emergency cooling systems, loss of external power is a weak spot.seamushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04299590041498402002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-5455555519721509822011-03-22T05:51:41.309-04:002011-03-22T05:51:41.309-04:00If I'm interpreting this incident correctly, t...If I'm interpreting this incident correctly, the nuke plant shut down pretty much as designed. The problem was that the backup electrical power sources (both generators and batteries) failed. If so, wouldn't we add this to the long list of other nuke accidents ultimately attributable to human stupidity?a_ray_in_dilbert_spacenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-16047430525091347962011-03-22T02:08:14.913-04:002011-03-22T02:08:14.913-04:00Here's a useful source of information about th...Here's a useful source of information about the Japanese reactors, from MIT Nuclear Science & Engineering<br />http://mitnse.com/John Farleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01589237239187934891noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-12160016904855773302011-03-20T19:56:11.512-04:002011-03-20T19:56:11.512-04:00seamus:
"One station in Sacramento detected ...seamus:<br /><br />"One station in Sacramento detected "minuscule quantities" of a radioactive isotope, xenon-133, that scientists said they believed came from the reactors at the stricken Fukushima plant.<br /><br />Believed? Or confirmed? Hmmm. Seems possible those xenon-133 particles could have come from plants in California."<br /><br />So a normally operating plant in California is venting an unreported radioactive plume, while there has been no radioactive plume from any of the four damaged Japanese plants.<br /><br />That's your hypothesis?<br /><br />Yes, levels are low, but the Japanese have been *openly* venting the damaged reactors, so any claim that there's been "no radioactive plume from the damaged plants" presumes they're lying about it.<br /><br />Don't be silly.<br /><br />I also believe we need fission power in our future. I believe the accident in Japan will be of little consequence health-wise except for those actively fighting it onsite, though it will be a huge economic hit as it's going to take a couple of decades before they're done dealing with the plants (as was true with TMI).<br /><br />But claiming there's no radioctive plume from the site when the Japanese openly admit to venting radioactive steam from a couple of the plants is downright silly.dhogazanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-37468677643974823912011-03-20T09:35:54.405-04:002011-03-20T09:35:54.405-04:00Okay, I am definitely out of my depth on the Zirca...Okay, I am definitely out of my depth on the Zircaloy fire potential.<br /><br />This study from 1979 has the most information based on computer modeling. "Severe Accidents in Spent Fuel Pools<br />in Support of Generic Safety<br />Issue 82"<br /><br />"Thus clad "fire" propagation appears to be a real threat but the basic question remains as to what are the "critical" conditions for initiation of oxidation and what the uncertainty is for a given spent fuel configuration."<br /><br />One of the interesting factors was the size of the ventilation hole in each rack cell. A 3" hole greatly reduced potential for initial oxidation and spread while a 1.5" hole increased the potential.<br /><br />That study was for a dry pool. The situation at unit 4 is more likely a partially filled pool, which is a different critter. I read a number of reports on lab tests to simulate rapid oxidation of Zircaloy under various conditions. They were able to oxidize hollow tubes to different degrees in a realistic environment. Autoclave tests were of limited value because conditions were significantly different to what would be expected in the real world. The material used to build the racks is an important factor as well. So I don't know.Recovering in the Florida Keyshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07913299764512464597noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-18538819363647100082011-03-20T07:26:25.565-04:002011-03-20T07:26:25.565-04:00Not all Gen IV reactors would use sodium.
Thermal...Not all Gen IV reactors would use sodium.<br /><br />Thermal reactors:<br />Very-high-temperature reactor (VHTR)<br />Very-high-temperature reactor (VHTR)<br />Supercritical-water-cooled reactor (SCWR)<br />Molten-salt reactor (MSR)<br /><br />Fast reactors:<br />Gas-cooled fast reactor (GFR)<br />Sodium-cooled fast reactor (SFR)<br />Lead-cooled fast reactor (LFR)<br />Energy amplifier<br /><br />For those left with the impression that calamity is assured because all Gen IV reactors would use sodium.<br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation_IV_reactorJ Bowersnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-73663765463772990472011-03-19T22:41:29.878-04:002011-03-19T22:41:29.878-04:00Sodium reacts with the water vapor in the air, not...Sodium reacts with the water vapor in the air, not the air. FWIW but a lot of people miss thisEliRabetthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07957002964638398767noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-28644838552787127882011-03-19T22:02:01.669-04:002011-03-19T22:02:01.669-04:00Seamus: "The question isn't "should ...Seamus: "The question isn't "should we build nuclear?" The question is "which designs are better?"<br /><br />A useful question is, 'are there any nuclear designs that can be made safe within earthquake zones?'Jakermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07940170017973039705noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-72360892146032550872011-03-19T21:43:34.680-04:002011-03-19T21:43:34.680-04:00Yes, liquid sodium can combust when exposed to air...Yes, liquid sodium can combust when exposed to air, and reacts violently with water, those are certainly drawbacks of using it. It also has many advantages over other coolants.<br /><br />The question isn't "should we build nuclear?" The question is "which designs are better?"seamushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04299590041498402002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-65426473371915800562011-03-19T21:16:56.502-04:002011-03-19T21:16:56.502-04:00Radiation from Fukushima plant detected in Sacrame...<a href="http://articles.latimes.com/2011/mar/18/world/la-fgw-japan-quake-sacramento-20110319" rel="nofollow">Radiation from Fukushima plant detected in Sacramento, EPA says</a><br /><br /><i>One station in Sacramento detected "minuscule quantities" of a radioactive isotope, xenon-133, that scientists said they believed came from the reactors at the stricken Fukushima plant.</i><br /><br />Believed? Or confirmed? Hmmm. Seems possible those xenon-133 particles could have come from plants in California.<br /><br /><i>But the level detected would result in a "dose rate approximately one-millionth of the dose rate that a person normally receives from rocks, bricks, the sun and other natural sources," according to an EPA statement.</i>seamushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04299590041498402002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-77117332252876259612011-03-19T21:08:46.077-04:002011-03-19T21:08:46.077-04:00BTW, we should not limit our concern to coolant pi...BTW, we should not limit our concern to coolant pipes. <br />when dealing with reactive metals such as sodium, itts the whole containment system for sodium that we should be concerned with (seals, joints etc.<br /><br />And remember they need to maintain an hermetic seal.Jakermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07940170017973039705noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-75883828947114951302011-03-19T21:04:10.595-04:002011-03-19T21:04:10.595-04:00Seamus: "did the bigger-than-design-basis ear...Seamus: "did the bigger-than-design-basis earthquake damage any coolant pipes on any reactors in Japan?"<br /><br />I don't know, do you?<br /><br />As I asked,<br /><br />"What would the result be if an earthquake cracked the coolant housing in such a [sodium mediated] reactor (say a on a seal or joint) ?<br /><br />Can the passive cooling provided by sodium work if its combusted by contact with air?"Jakermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07940170017973039705noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-1027892929018172012011-03-19T21:01:02.973-04:002011-03-19T21:01:02.973-04:00quote is from "No water in spent fuel pool of...quote is from "No water in spent fuel pool of Japan nuclear plant, says NRC"<br />http://www.news10.net/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=128670seamushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04299590041498402002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-84220299347642800412011-03-19T20:59:17.496-04:002011-03-19T20:59:17.496-04:00"U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission Chairman ..."U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission Chairman Gregory Jaczko said in Washington that all the water was gone from the spent fuel pools at Unit 4 of the Fukushima Dai-ichi complex. Japanese officials denied it. If Jaczko is correct, it would mean there's nothing to stop the fuel rods from getting hotter and ultimately melting down. The outer shell of the rods could also ignite with enough force to propel the radioactive fuel inside over a wide area. Gregory Jaczko did not say Wednesday how the information was obtained..."<br /><br />Yep, nothing confirmed. Speculation.<br /><br />Jakerman, did the bigger-than-design-basis earthquake damage any coolant pipes on any reactors in Japan? While I'm not a huge fan of nuclear (fission) energy, I don't think we have a choice. So I'm a big fan of the liquid sodium fast reactor, yes. I'm also a big fan of wind and solar, but will they be enough? Remember, energy demand is going up, especially when you consider things like the billion plus people in India without electricity.seamushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04299590041498402002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-91179199242619876642011-03-19T17:59:27.529-04:002011-03-19T17:59:27.529-04:00@ Seamus:
"We should skip Gen III and go str...@ Seamus:<br /><br />"We should skip Gen III and go straight to Gen IV designs."<br /><br />Gen IV such as those cooled with sodium metal? What would the result be if an earthquake cracked the coolant housing in such a reactor (say a on a seal or joint) ?<br /><br />Can the passive cooling provided by sodium work if its combusted by contact with air?Jakermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07940170017973039705noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-64460980783588935212011-03-19T17:47:09.838-04:002011-03-19T17:47:09.838-04:00Report of radiation in milk and spinach near the r...Report of radiation in milk and spinach near the reactors, and traces of radioactive iodine in Tokyo tap water:<br /><br />http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2011/03/19/japan-radiation.htmlHolly Stickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01137842937086115228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-24376087376599078552011-03-19T13:51:48.222-04:002011-03-19T13:51:48.222-04:00"Dhogaza, there's a difference between &q..."Dhogaza, there's a difference between "radiation", hazardous in the immediate area, and "plumes of radioactive particles" carried aloft. As far as we know, the former is what is being detected, not the latter"<br /><br />Which would be why, of course, small amounts of radiation from the plant has been detected in California, because it's in the immediate area ...<br /><br />They've been mapping the plume for days, which thankfully has been been blowing out to sea for the most part.<br /><br />"There's a difference between exposed fuel rods in the cores (likely, but contained) and in the spent fuel pools (possible, but not confirmed)."<br /><br />Head of the NRC has said otherwise regarding the spent fuel pools. Remember, we've been flying sensors on helicopters and fixed-wing aircraft over the site (with Japanese permission), I don't think the head of the NRC simply pulled this statement out of his rear.dhogazahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13589109126483161671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-37297008992113333722011-03-19T12:54:02.390-04:002011-03-19T12:54:02.390-04:00Dhogaza, there's a difference between "ra...Dhogaza, there's a difference between "radiation", hazardous in the immediate area, and "plumes of radioactive particles" carried aloft. As far as we know, the former is what is being detected, not the latter. Of course there may be some particles emitted from everything that's happened, but as far as we know the spent fuel rods are not ablaze.<br /><br />There's a difference between exposed fuel rods in the cores (likely, but contained) and in the spent fuel pools (possible, but not confirmed).<br /><br />In the media, "nuclear expert" apparently includes plenty of folks with an agenda, such as Joseph Cirincione with the Ploughshares Fund.<br /><br />It's an ugly mess and I'm not defending any Gen II reactors. We should skip Gen III and go straight to Gen IV designs.<br /><br />These tsunamis were so devastating. The water swept over a 10m high tsunami wall in one town.seamushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04299590041498402002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-25659212713677513282011-03-19T10:49:58.738-04:002011-03-19T10:49:58.738-04:00@J Bowers,
Own goals all round, with the Repub...@J Bowers,<br /><br />Own goals all round, with the Repub's recent repeal of the laws of physics in the House and the rise of the t.baggers, their ideology also trumps reality.<br /><br />America seems to be in a whole different ball game, which is a concern considering their participation in reduction is essential, unless they go broke and start shooting each other even more.jcrabbnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-9544655584650112822011-03-19T08:30:14.901-04:002011-03-19T08:30:14.901-04:00@ jcrabb, they're out of their boxes, alright,...@ jcrabb, they're out of their boxes, alright, and revealing how their ideology trumps their humanity.<br /><br />"CNBC anchor Larry Kudlow was also in hot water after stating he was grateful the human toll was far worse than the economic cost of the crisis."<br /><br />http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1367698/Radiation-good-says-Ann-Coulter-weighs-Japans-nuclear-crisis.html<br /><br />Own goals, methinks, once the logic seeps in that if the same happened in America they'd be more concerned about the money than the family.J Bowersnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-5444547621289009602011-03-19T00:51:31.680-04:002011-03-19T00:51:31.680-04:00Humour section:
http://tv.gawker.com/#!5783191/an...Humour section:<br /><br />http://tv.gawker.com/#!5783191/ann-coulter-to-bill-oreilly-radiation-is-actually-good-for-you<br /><br />Denialist methodology seems to be applicable across the board, with the extreme antiscience shock troops charging across the parapet, making the most insane pronouncements, capturing ground through 'shock and awe' of pure stupidity, planting the tattered flag of doubt, enabling the following 'regular' antiscience troops, who are no less incorrect, to sound reasonable and hold the captured ground, defending the abused flag, maintaining the status quo.jcrabbnoreply@blogger.com