tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post5353252396878384518..comments2024-03-19T03:14:04.172-04:00Comments on Rabett Run: Gravity in the GreenhouseEliRabetthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07957002964638398767noreply@blogger.comBlogger24125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-5740422628966051552017-04-15T22:13:15.449-04:002017-04-15T22:13:15.449-04:00dlen: Oh come on. Without gravity the distribution...dlen: Oh come on. Without gravity the distribution of gas molecules would clearly be a constant per unit volume, at equilibrium, and the temperature would be the same throughout that volume. David Appellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03318269033139447591noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-72850621367648948072017-04-15T16:05:38.273-04:002017-04-15T16:05:38.273-04:00Imagine an atmosphere on a planet without gravitat...Imagine an atmosphere on a planet without gravitation with a glass ceiling at the top with no radiation effects, that is put there in order to prevent the escape of the gas into the vacuum. <br />In this case, we would still get a greenhouse effect and a temperature decrease with height. At each absorbtion lenght step, temperature would drop a certain amount. The temperature drop would actually increase with each step - otherwise, there wouldn't be a continuity of the energy flow. The outermost layer would radiate into vacuum. This atmosphere would have a kind of overall thermal resistivity, which would be rising with rising absorbtivity. <br />But of course you know that as well!dlenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13905544293183492836noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-76676267272096380002017-01-22T15:32:53.910-05:002017-01-22T15:32:53.910-05:00Nick, path length - proportional thermal conductiv...Nick, path length - proportional thermal conductivity implies lossless ballistic transport, as in ballistic electrons or phonons- the thermal conductivity of perfect crystals in the low temperature regime ( well below theta Debye) is indeed proportional to their size.<br />THE CLIMATE WARShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02578106673226403151noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-63155568576174181892017-01-22T09:40:31.231-05:002017-01-22T09:40:31.231-05:00This happens over the South Pole, and explains in ...<i>This happens over the South Pole, and explains in part why Antarctica has been cooling over the last 30 years. </i><br /><br />More bollocks from Fernando. No overall trend for Antarctica. Regional warming and some regional cooling (very slight). Ozone hole most likely responsible for central Antarctic cooling (if it really exists at all). BBDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10687930416706386215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-38126626486558427842017-01-22T04:54:21.536-05:002017-01-22T04:54:21.536-05:00We must remember that CO2 causes a negative greenh...We must remember that CO2 causes a negative greenhouse effect if the surface is colder than the atmosphere. The effect of co2 isn't linear, therefore at current co2 concentrations we are probably seeing close to the maximum negative co2 greenhouse effect over those areas where the atmosphere is warmer than the surface. This happens over the South Pole, and explains in part why Antarctica has been cooling over the last 30 years. Fernando Leanmehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16085680730729620836noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-55644963213413150492017-01-22T01:46:45.875-05:002017-01-22T01:46:45.875-05:00Is the Wabbett offering a welcome to Doug Co##on?
...Is the Wabbett offering a welcome to Doug Co##on?<br /><br />http://www.drroyspencer.com/2016/03/blog-comments-suspended/Mike Dombroskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14722885486530482844noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-18492799530677508102017-01-22T01:22:49.098-05:002017-01-22T01:22:49.098-05:00Russell,
But Nick takes the gong by invoking balli...Russell,<br /><i>But Nick takes the gong by invoking ballistic thermal transport "</i><br /><br />Nothing to do with ballistics. The path length is the path of the photon. Eli's 3-30 m. Nothing to do with moisture. It simply describes what happens when there is a temperature gradient in an active gas and small parcels of heat are transferred (by emission and absorption) up and down the gradient. There is a diffusive flux, following Fourier's law. Rosseland developed it for star interiors, but it's main terrestrial application (as in the link) is to smoky gases.<br />Nick Stokeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06377413236983002873noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-17123348443866664022017-01-22T00:09:19.331-05:002017-01-22T00:09:19.331-05:00I've waited years for this post Eli. There we...I've waited years for this post Eli. There were moments previously when I thought that it would come, but better delayed than never emitted...<br /><br />And nary a SCUBA tank or balloon in sight.Bernard J.https://www.blogger.com/profile/16299073166371273808noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-72374958167147610512017-01-21T23:18:32.329-05:002017-01-21T23:18:32.329-05:00All your particle are belong to us.All your particle are belong to us.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-87657626998744524232017-01-21T23:10:28.324-05:002017-01-21T23:10:28.324-05:00It's 3-d, 8c -- gravity gradiometers readil...It's 3-d, 8c -- gravity gradiometers readily measure ocen tides and can do gravity waves in the atmosphere as well<br /><br />But Nick takes the gong by invoking ballistic thermal transport :<br /><br />" the Rosseland limit is a diffusion equation, with the conductivity proportional to the path length."<br /><br />Works fine for phonons in monoisotopic perfect crystals at cryogenic temperatures - what could possibly go wrong in a wet mixture of gases ?<br /><br />THE CLIMATE WARShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02578106673226403151noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-23017203669299411772017-01-21T22:52:48.961-05:002017-01-21T22:52:48.961-05:00David, the greenhouse effect of greenhouse gases i...David, the greenhouse effect of greenhouse gases is so well understood that I don't see the need to discuss it AT ALL, unless something new come up or some new perspective arises in its discussion. Here the topic is quantum gravity as far as I can see, or if you prefer, quantum mechanics and general relativity. So as far as I see it, axions and gravitons are particularly germane to that subject.<br /><br />Yes, I am biased and I do have a few axes that need grinding.<br /><br />I like the term 'forward'. It suits me.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-63013945894016719332017-01-21T22:27:21.854-05:002017-01-21T22:27:21.854-05:00You're way off topic, and riffing for who know...You're way off topic, and riffing for who knows why. But what you're writing is not relevant to the GHE.David Appellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03318269033139447591noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-85705060552131934722017-01-21T21:38:56.730-05:002017-01-21T21:38:56.730-05:00Eli and Pedro already explained the general idea, ...Eli and Pedro already explained the general idea, and they are right of course. Nobody thinks about these things rationally anymore, they just take it for granted, up is up and down is down, and that is that.<br /><br />But now we live in an America where up is down and war is peace, and therefore it's legitimate to ask just what the hell is going on.<br /><br />Axions and standard model particles in a locally curved gravitational field is going on David, where mass and energy and particles evolve pushed along by an arrow of time, another half a dimension so to speak.<br /><br />What's wrong with just saying that? It can't be said enough in a nation where now the lower half of the IQ spread have absolute power. Say it so often those low IQ voter puke or cringe or run away in fear. Otherwise some day they'll be knocking on your door at night.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-28290843303197898752017-01-21T21:15:13.879-05:002017-01-21T21:15:13.879-05:00OK, I thought you were being serious about this. M...OK, I thought you were being serious about this. My mistake.David Appellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03318269033139447591noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-31798741319364244132017-01-21T20:55:41.315-05:002017-01-21T20:55:41.315-05:00I agree, David, but where did those surfaces come ...I agree, David, but where did those surfaces come from? How did they arise? Maybe these are the fundamental mysteries of space the Donald was talking about. N-dimensional hypersurfaces and spheres are a part of the fundamental topology of the universe, and our universe is dimensionally reduce to the minimum necessary to have particle=energy mass-flux with an arrow of time. Hold a 0.1 meV dark matter axion in front of these people and that's all the crackpot physics they need in order to blow off the more immediate and near term existential threat to the more imaginary and delusional ones, like for instance, 4000 Gt of stored carbon reserves, two ice sheets, a global ocean and many continents being a threat to jobs for seven billion religious nutjobs.<br /><br />I mean, there are only so many things a pristine, life and water bearing terrestrial with an active hydrogeological cycle, a stable star and a wonderful climate can do for people desperate for work.<br /><br />Paradise just ain't what it used to be.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-75717605424572888122017-01-21T20:13:24.577-05:002017-01-21T20:13:24.577-05:00I don't understand why all that's necessar...I don't understand why all that's necessary.<br /><br />If you have an atmosphere that stores heat, it radiates. Some of that radiation will warm the surface and lower atmosphere.David Appellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03318269033139447591noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-49371051048338489132017-01-21T20:08:22.096-05:002017-01-21T20:08:22.096-05:00Right, David, but a gravitational gradient establi...Right, David, but a gravitational gradient establishes up and down and inwards and outwards. Convection handles sideways. Plus there is night and day. I'm pretty sure astronomers have this all worked out by now.<br /><br />But then again, analytic geometry might be wrong. It's only a theory.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-27587155850847231712017-01-21T19:56:13.689-05:002017-01-21T19:56:13.689-05:00A planet needs gravity to retain an atmosphere. Bu...A planet needs gravity to retain an atmosphere. But other than that, if that atmosphere stores heat, the planet has a greenhouse effect. David Appellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03318269033139447591noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-71017044580115684282017-01-21T18:26:26.553-05:002017-01-21T18:26:26.553-05:00It's a pretty simple model that applies well a...It's a pretty simple model that applies well at many levels in a scale invariant universe. Therefore ... quarks and gluons. I can't wait until we can start using dark matter axions for attitude control and propulsion. That's Trump <i>et al</i>.'s approach. Who cares about this planet when there are all those other planets out there. Who cares if they are all dead. That's a feature, not a bug. We have an infinite supply of babies, easily indoctrinated by the mass media.<br /><br />Oops, was I supposed to keep that a secret?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-47518816267476155282017-01-21T18:13:43.603-05:002017-01-21T18:13:43.603-05:00Actually dT/dz = -g/Cp and Cp depends on the molec...Actually dT/dz = -g/Cp and Cp depends on the molecular degrees of freedom, a quantum property. So the lapse rate is quantum gravity in full action :)Pedro J:https://www.blogger.com/profile/02321121269593896593noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-31778222121025084312017-01-21T17:10:14.973-05:002017-01-21T17:10:14.973-05:00The the greenhouse effect and global warming are t...The the greenhouse effect and global warming are the long sought after unifications of general relativity and quantum mechanics I have been searching for. Eli, you are a genius. There is nothing global warming can't do! My time on Earth has not been wasted.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-71366064817309963582017-01-21T16:47:30.556-05:002017-01-21T16:47:30.556-05:00Nick, one can have an atmosphere with gravity and ...Nick, one can have an atmosphere with gravity and no greenhouse gases and while the Rosseland limit is useful it is complex.EliRabetthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07957002964638398767noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-26399290303716895912017-01-21T16:40:46.889-05:002017-01-21T16:40:46.889-05:00"The greenhouse effect is a consequence of gr...<i>"The greenhouse effect is a consequence of gravity."</i><br />Well, yes, because without gravity there would be no atmosphere, GHG or no. But really, the GHE is a consequence of obstructing outward heat flux. There is always going to be some mechanism that will raise temperature as a consequence.<br /><br />I find it useful to think about the <a href="https://www.sharcnet.ca/Software/Fluent6/html/ug/node578.htm" rel="nofollow">Rosseland limit</a> of radiative heat transfer (OD>3 or so). That photon free path essentially means diffusion. And the Rosseland limit is a diffusion equation, with the conductivity proportional to the path length.<br />Nick Stokeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06377413236983002873noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-42099702734827069762017-01-21T16:36:46.367-05:002017-01-21T16:36:46.367-05:00"Everything should be made as simple as possi..."Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler."...Einstein<br /><br />A couple of crucial details, also due to QM: The lapse rate has a lot to do with the convective instability of the atmosphere which in turn is due to radiative transport being less effective than convective in the Troposphere; and the atmosphere is much more transparent to visible than IR.CapitalistImperialistPighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17523405806602731435noreply@blogger.com