tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post5307353566282099877..comments2024-03-19T03:14:04.172-04:00Comments on Rabett Run: Amoeba Gets UnderfootEliRabetthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07957002964638398767noreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-18809605631375113872010-04-01T13:21:31.172-04:002010-04-01T13:21:31.172-04:00ICO replied to my query: ICO responds to Desdemona...ICO replied to my query: <b><a href="http://www.desdemonadespair.net/2010/04/ico-responds-to-desdemonas-climategate.html" rel="nofollow">ICO responds to Desdemona’s ‘Climategate’ query</a></b>.Jimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07080844313226790538noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-90238567023788550592010-02-12T21:00:47.838-05:002010-02-12T21:00:47.838-05:00dhogaza, I think it's crystal clear per the FO...dhogaza, I think it's crystal clear per the FOI law that exempt materials can be properly deleted.Steve Bloomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12943109973917998380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-81298831652418544182010-02-11T20:20:05.155-05:002010-02-11T20:20:05.155-05:00dhogaza:
My take is that Jones was saying that if...dhogaza:<br /><br />My take is that Jones was saying that if they were going to push it, that the FOI requests that weren't legal - which most of them were not, again, instead of going after the 95% publicly available, they illegally demanded the copies of the data from CRU instead of from the data sources - then better to delete the copies than violate the contracts with the data, some of which were formal, and other of which were "gentlemen's agreements" and others of which were derived from other formal contracts and agreements.<br /><br />I say illegal, because they were spam FOI requests for CRU to violate the rights of the original data holders. <br /><br />I don't think that's legally wrong - it's what you should do. This is a purely political process, not a fair legal process, and the irony here is that it's being done by the MARKET FUNDAMENTALISTS whose stated position in this case is that you should be able to force someone to fence you someone else's stolen IP.<br /><br />Compared to what the Blair govt. did w/r/t the Iraq aggression, it's probably small beans, but IMO it's the same corruption. They would never, ever, in a million years dare to have the government announce formally that if any American political group wants you to give them copies of proprietary data you have from other sources, you must give them up or face legal penalties. They prefer to keep this in the shadows, because caving in to right-wing sleaze has become the UK govt. way.Marion Delgadohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09493068399042656060noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-46105828963279631362010-02-11T12:45:09.476-05:002010-02-11T12:45:09.476-05:00So I sent a note to the ICO<a href="http://technozoic.blogspot.com/2010/02/so-i-sent-note-to-ico.html" rel="nofollow">So I sent a note to the ICO</a>Jimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07080844313226790538noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-66614146551211267732010-02-10T18:40:04.717-05:002010-02-10T18:40:04.717-05:00dhogaza @10:05AM: "Jones did do one thing wro...dhogaza @10:05AM: "Jones did do one thing wrong, for certain - writing people and suggesting they delete e-mails that might be subject to a FOI request."<br /><br />But that was <i>satire</i>, you see; satire excuses everything, at least if you're Rush Limbaugh.Jimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07080844313226790538noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-28253850227778885042010-02-10T17:41:31.450-05:002010-02-10T17:41:31.450-05:00Marco @9:35: Don't expect an answer from the I...Marco @9:35: <i>Don't expect an answer from the ICO. ... the ICO hasn't published *anything* about the UEA. </i><br /><br />Agreed, I looked all over their site for this claim about UEA breaking the law, to no avail. UEA is pushing back on the <i>Guardian</i> story, at least: <br /><br /><a href="http://www.uea.ac.uk/mac/comm/media/press/CRUstatements/guardianstatement" rel="nofollow">Statement from the University of East Anglia in response to ‘UK scientist hid climate data flaws’</a>Jimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07080844313226790538noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-58594945606855256482010-02-10T13:05:06.488-05:002010-02-10T13:05:06.488-05:00"Don't expect an answer from the ICO. I&#..."Don't expect an answer from the ICO. I've already tried to get them to clarify Graham Smith's supposed statement on UEA breaking the law, but have received zero response."<br /><br />They're the FOI Gods, so ... someone should FOI them! :)dhogazanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-81760340132615839242010-02-10T13:03:50.445-05:002010-02-10T13:03:50.445-05:00"For the record, I don't think Phil Jones..."For the record, I don't think Phil Jones did one damned thing wrong, and it's being proven now that he did not. He did his job, some creepy resource extraction and neoliberal anti-sciencers started a scripted spam FOIA harrassment campaign, and he stuck by his data agreements with the sources in the face of the illegal harrassment campaign. Full stop."<br /><br />Flooding with FOI requests is not, AFAIK, illegal. It appears that the UK FOI law allows an agency to speed-click the "reject" button in such cases, but there's nothing I've read that suggests that prosecution of the flooder's an option.<br /><br />Of course, there might be other laws that come into play if you're persistent enough, I have no idea.<br /><br />Jones did do one thing wrong, for certain - writing people and suggesting they delete e-mails that might be subject to a FOI request. It's illegal to do that in the US, and apparently in the UK, too (if you're in country, if I'm in the US I can ignore UK FOI requests - by law, maybe not by employer via personal conduct codes, etc).<br /><br />He should be reprimanded for that, and then life should go on. As director of CRU, he's responsible for knowing at least the basics of what's required under the UK FOI law. I'd say the seriousness of the transgression would be much less if it were, say, a grad student in the employ of CRU rather than the director.<br /><br />IMO. Emphasis on the "and then life should go on" part. The e-mail thief's 15 minutes of anonymous fame should have expired last year.dhogazanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-71766289340926593522010-02-10T12:35:23.176-05:002010-02-10T12:35:23.176-05:00Don't expect an answer from the ICO. I've ...Don't expect an answer from the ICO. I've already tried to get them to clarify Graham Smith's supposed statement on UEA breaking the law, but have received zero response.<br /><br />I say "supposed" statement, because the ICO hasn't published *anything* about the UEA. There's one decision notice from september on a different topic, and there have been no press releases on this topic.Marcohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07262670367947223521noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-21552702180400434582010-02-10T12:01:53.671-05:002010-02-10T12:01:53.671-05:00Amoeba, would you care to share the text of the co...Amoeba, would you care to share the text of the complaint with us so that we can carefully explain to the ICO commissioners what it is to be hit by 50 or so duplicate requests.EliRabetthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07957002964638398767noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-66570629828220753382010-02-10T06:42:10.135-05:002010-02-10T06:42:10.135-05:00For the record, I don't think Phil Jones did o...For the record, I don't think Phil Jones did one damned thing wrong, and it's being proven now that he did not. He did his job, some creepy resource extraction and neoliberal anti-sciencers started a scripted spam FOIA harrassment campaign, and he stuck by his data agreements with the sources in the face of the illegal harrassment campaign. Full stop.Marion Delgadohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09493068399042656060noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-34721383619486476842010-02-10T04:40:33.296-05:002010-02-10T04:40:33.296-05:00Eli, I see you've been looking at my family ph...Eli, I see you've been looking at my family photo album!amoebahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15783694650121687459noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-28284679134996120712010-02-10T04:37:44.424-05:002010-02-10T04:37:44.424-05:00A letter has been sent to the Information Commissi...A letter has been sent to the Information Commissioner's Office (ICO) about this matter.<br /><br />For those interested in doing likewise, the email address is:<br />casework@ICO.GSI.GOV.UK<br /><br />Subject<br />UEA FOI CASE ONGOING<br /><br />Norfolk Police have also been informed.<br /><br />enquiries@norfolk.pnn.police.uk <br /><br />I repectfully request that some others [especially individuals with impressive credentials] lend their weight to this.amoebahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15783694650121687459noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-77549383711639686292010-02-09T19:53:57.036-05:002010-02-09T19:53:57.036-05:00Bigcity:
I agree to an extent, and thus I'm...Bigcity: <br /><br />I agree to an extent, and thus I'm also puzzled why this is falling on Jones personally, but Jones still had some involvement in how it plays out. As I've been saying - I have no idea how these things work, but this would be a good occasion for the university to look at the procedures, as you say.<br /><br />Creationists don't already use this tactic? Climate sceptics have been running plays from the creationist book; maybe it's time for an idea to go the other way.carrot eaternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-57768542419874649462010-02-09T18:52:41.727-05:002010-02-09T18:52:41.727-05:00"A researcher's personal annoyance with t..."A researcher's personal annoyance with the Steve McI's of the world can be understandable, but that annoyance shouldn't cloud your judgment." <br /><br />This is wrong. No matter what you might think of Jones et al's handling of FOI requests, the decision was institutional, not personal. Jones persuaded UEA's info officer that these requests were vexatious, and this was cleared with some level of the UEA management, and everybody signed off on it.<br /><br />I hope UEA uses this occasion to ask the Information Office how they are supposed to handle frivolous FOI requests. Is more funding involved? I hope they defend their scientists vigorously. If it starts with Climate Science it will spread: anytime you want to sandbag progress, use FOI requests. Creatiinists, Larouchians, you name it....all will start filing.bigcitylibhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05081538803991095825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-76787667538277995762010-02-09T09:46:21.769-05:002010-02-09T09:46:21.769-05:00DeepClimate,
did the Mosher thingy come from a pl...DeepClimate,<br /><br />did the Mosher thingy come from a plausible IP number for him? It sounds a bit improbable that he would be <em>that</em> stupid.Martin Vermeerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04537045395760606324noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-68667949800549593512010-02-08T16:29:28.227-05:002010-02-08T16:29:28.227-05:00Patrick M.
Posted Jul 24, 2009 at 2:05 PM | Permal...<i><br /> Patrick M.<br />Posted Jul 24, 2009 at 2:05 PM | Permalink | Reply<br /><br />I too would write a letter to someone except for the fact that I am a<br />mere muggle, (non-academic), and would be far too tempted to use the<br />data for commercial purposes, like selling it to some senator in a<br />highway rest stop or selling it to Amy Winehouse in some dark alley.<br /><br />Steve: non-academics please ask as well. The more the merrier.</i><br /><br />http://climateaudit.org/2009/07/24/cru-refuses-data-once-again/#comment-188549Anders Martinssonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17611686913637615704noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-85034882572323945412010-02-08T13:45:21.260-05:002010-02-08T13:45:21.260-05:00MapleLeaf: If anything useful comes of all this, ...MapleLeaf: If anything useful comes of all this, perhaps it will be universities looking at their procedures for handling FOI. <br /><br />It would not surprise me if the final investigation showed that CRU could have released more information than they at first did (which only resulted in an unreasonable barrage of further requests). I really never use HadCRU data (I'm just more familiar with GISS and GHCN) so I don't know what they released when, but I would think they could have made transparent all their data streams which weren't confidential, as well as providing a station list. I'm not sure, but it sounds like they've only done this belatedly.<br /><br />A researcher's personal annoyance with the Steve McI's of the world can be understandable, but that annoyance shouldn't cloud your judgment. Maybe between Hadley and CRU somebody was also being overzealous about the confidentiality agreements. Having a legal officer of the school playing a clear role should avoid that sort of thing.carrot eaternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-23307332290232112052010-02-08T13:25:34.527-05:002010-02-08T13:25:34.527-05:00Anonymous wrote @7:57 "So he had people try a...Anonymous wrote @7:57 "So he had people try and verify this with FOI requests."<br /><br />OK, so no moniker, so I'll call you "air head". And the idea of actually reading the FOI rules and guidelines as an alternative completely escaped McIntyre's mind. Uh, huh, that is the only way they could figure that out. M&M&M (McI, McK, and Mosher) knew damn well what was going on, they and Wilkinson saw an opportunity to obstruct, interfere and harass, and they could not resist to temptation to do so.<br /><br />M&M&M are the ones lying here air head. They knew that the CRU and Met Office were in no position to release all of the data. So like petulant children they threw their toys and started playing dirty, and hoped that the child screaming the loudest would get the attention. Well, they got attention, positive attention at first, but that is likely to change very soon as Sir Russell and the ICO continue to investigate. <br /><br />I agree with Carrot about Jones. Correct me if I am wrong, but was the final decision to reject and honour a FOI that of the university? Wouldn't the University say we have this FOI, it is legit so please help us get it done. I can certainly understand why Jones et al were pretty fed up with all the continuous stream of bogus requests coming in. Maybe Jones is being a scapegoat for the University admin? Jones is first and foremost a researcher, he is not equipped/trained to deal with these kind of bogus requests. That should have been the university's priority and problem, not his. <br /><br />MapleLeafAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-85036946723513051902010-02-08T13:12:00.671-05:002010-02-08T13:12:00.671-05:00Mosher also commented about Phil Jones at my blog:...Mosher also commented about Phil Jones at my blog:<br /><br />http://deepclimate.org/2010/02/04/steve-mcintyre-and-ross-mckitrick-part-1-in-the-beginning/#comment-2269<br /><br /><i><br /><br />The death threats are troublesome for two reasons.<br /><br />1. Jones caregivers should be reading his mails if he is in such a state of mind.<br /><br />2. I know his supporters are mad at him, but why are they writing death threats<br /><br />[DC: You are a real piece of work. Please don't bother to comment here again. But thanks for revealing your true colours.]<br /><br /></i><br /><br />That's one comment that won't disappear into the ether.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-46587003081998891432010-02-08T12:48:42.781-05:002010-02-08T12:48:42.781-05:00For 'Anonymous Truth ...' -- the sort of t...For 'Anonymous Truth ...' -- the sort of thing you can find if you look for it:<br /><br />http://www.justice.gov.uk/guidance/foi-procedural-vexatious.htm<br /><br />----excerpt----<br />Vexatious requests<br /><br />Under section 14(1) of the Freedom of Information Act, public authorities are not obliged to comply with vexatious requests.<br /><br />Whether a request is vexatious is determined by the information requested, not the person making the request. An individual can make as many requests for information as he or she wishes. Each of their requests must be considered on a case-by-case basis (although it may be appropriate to reject substantially similar requests under section 14(2), see Repeated requests, below, and the provisions on aggregating costs may be relevant, see Fees and aggregation.<br /><br />Vexatiousness needs to be assessed with reference to all the circumstances of an individual case. However, if a request is not a genuine endeavour to access information for its own sake, but is aimed at disrupting the work of an authority, or harassing individuals in it, then it may well be vexatious.Hank Robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07521410755553979665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-70372053785791384642010-02-08T12:28:02.781-05:002010-02-08T12:28:02.781-05:00Thanks all for nailing this down. I recalled seei...Thanks all for nailing this down. I recalled seeing the CA thread organizing the FOI flood, but hadn't kept the link.<br /><br />> Anonymous Truth about FOI said...<br />> Is there even such a thing <br />> as FOI harrasment?<br /><br />Yes, of course there's FOI 'Harassment' -- you can look this stuff up. You should've looked it up before you got involved in doing it, if you're one of the CAcas.<br /><br />How much counts as harassment? Here's one precedent: <br />http://www.out-law.com/page-7797 <br /><br />"15 requests from one person under the Freedom of Information Act in just 11 months" -- was harassment.<br /><br />Vexatious FOI requests were 'harassment' of transport authority<br /><br />OUT-LAW News, 22/02/2007<br /><br />The Information Commissioner's Office (ICO) has ruled in favour of a public authority which complained that it was the subject of so many Freedom of Information requests that the behaviour of the requester was vexatious.<br /><br />The West Midlands Passenger Transport Executive (Centro) received 15 requests from one person under the Freedom of Information Act in just 11 months, between January and November 2005. It told the requester at that point that it would not answer any more queries. The requester complained to the ICO....."Hank Robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07521410755553979665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-58543272777972298152010-02-08T12:20:13.764-05:002010-02-08T12:20:13.764-05:00carrot eater,
I've got a local copy, but time...carrot eater,<br /><br />I've got a local copy, but timesonline prohbits robots (includes WebCitation) and doesn't give proper links to comments anyway. For Mosher's comment, go to the comments, have them sorted "oldest first" and go to page 3.bluegruenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-22249992896261408082010-02-08T10:57:50.733-05:002010-02-08T10:57:50.733-05:00Yea, there was an FOI request, to which the respon...Yea, there was an FOI request, to which the response was, the material is confidential. Then McIntyre said you gave this material to Peter Webster, so he made an FOI request for that. TO which the response was, we are not allowed to give the data to non-academics. So he had people try and verify this with FOI requests. Are people OK with these lies from Phil Jones and co?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-5500873509122382002010-02-08T09:01:27.384-05:002010-02-08T09:01:27.384-05:00If you guys are mining comment threads, make sure ...If you guys are mining comment threads, make sure you archive the relevant pages, online and locally.<br /><br />In any event, I daresay the investigators know there was an orchestrated FOI campaign on. Documenting it further could be useful, but I don't know that it's as significant as you're all making it out to be. Even if what Steve McI and his followers did was totally unreasonable and harassing, and even if Steve McI is a disingenuous *** (well, he is), the CRU could have probably handled the whole thing better, on their end.<br /><br />What I don't understand is why the whole thing is falling on Jones. What is the line of responsibility and decision making, in regards to FOI requests? Surely this gets bumped to the university's legal counsel at some point. Seems to me that the whole thing had gotten to Jones on a personal/emotional level; there's a reason why a university administration has legal resources to sort these things out.carrot eaternoreply@blogger.com