tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post1151287240887067057..comments2024-03-19T03:14:04.172-04:00Comments on Rabett Run: To fluoridate or not to fluoridate, that is the question. Next Tuesday at my Water District Board meetingEliRabetthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07957002964638398767noreply@blogger.comBlogger49125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-83318933457776146442011-11-18T20:02:04.546-05:002011-11-18T20:02:04.546-05:00And a PS - I have significant dental fluorosis.
I...And a PS - I have significant dental fluorosis.<br /><br />I didn't win a trick.<br /><br /><br />Bernard J. Hyphen-Anonymous XVII, Esq.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-65919403000023736032011-11-18T19:53:51.256-05:002011-11-18T19:53:51.256-05:00Interesting to see the anecdotes, and wonder to wh...Interesting to see the anecdotes, and wonder to what extent incompletely accounted-for cofactors influence caries formation.<br /><br />My father grew up without fluoride and his dad had a sweets business, and dad had no cavities. My mother grew up with fluoride, ate few sweets, had all of her vegetables and meat raised and prepared by <i>her</i> father, and she has a mouthfull of cavities (now replaced by false teeth).<br /><br />After about age 6 I grew up with fluoride, and had few sweets until just before my teens, when we used to collect cans and bottles for cash, which was spent on sweets. About two years later, within the space of six months, I had over half a dozen cavities, where I'd had none for the 10 - 12 years prior.<br /><br />My nephew and niece, who have lived on rainwater since they were younger than school age but who were fluoridated until ages 1 1/2 and 3, and who are atrocious gluttons of anything sweet, have no cavities.<br /><br />Another nephew, on tank water and 4 years old, has a deplorable sugar-filled diet, and multiple cavities. My eldest, also on tank water and four years old, is prohibited sweets except fruit, and she is spotless.<br /><br />Throw <i>that</i> into the mix!<br /><br /><br />Bernard J. Hyphen-Anonymous XVII, Esq.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-16245195526846986852011-11-16T02:01:31.918-05:002011-11-16T02:01:31.918-05:00We voted 7-0 that we wanted fluoridation, but boot...We voted 7-0 that we wanted fluoridation, but booted down the road for a later time whether we would facilitate fluoridation by paying for it Water District money. <br /><br />I'll do a brief follow-up blog post.Brianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09301230860904555513noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-10860291180930204342011-11-15T19:06:55.739-05:002011-11-15T19:06:55.739-05:00So what was the decision?So what was the decision?David B. Bensonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02917182411282836875noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-86027951795761784002011-11-15T13:08:36.666-05:002011-11-15T13:08:36.666-05:00Interesting stories. My teeth had slowly disinteg...Interesting stories. My teeth had slowly disintegrated over the course of about 20 years, between 20 and 40. I'd brush every day, and I drank flouridated water. About five years ago, I was diagnosed with GERD (bad acid reflux). I didn't change my dental habits, but I did start drinking water only--no pop, no tea, some low-acid juice. I also started sleeping on my left side or occasionally on my back. I haven't had any dental problems in the last five years, and my teeth feel healthier than they ever have.<br /><br />Captcha: "lasur" (quotes for allusory correctness)DSLnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-75232110756401232222011-11-14T14:02:47.974-05:002011-11-14T14:02:47.974-05:00Brian, you can figure the lifetime burden for the ...Brian, you can figure the lifetime burden for the kids growing up without sufficient fluoride (is there any fluoride at all in your current water supply? I assume likely not, unless you draw on deep wells). <br /><br />Even taking the economists' route of discounting future costs drastically, even counting only the municipal employees who may have health care costs, I bet it will cost to provide the fluoride than to take care of those employees' families' kids' teeth and later on their cardiovascular problems arising from pyorrhea. <br /><br />Done any numbers? The dentists and your insurance provider will know.<br /><br />Alternatively -- if you don't do fluoride, spend a tenth of that sum on informing mothers about what _is_ known to help that they can do and making the xylitol gum available. Hell, hand it out at school too, with school breakfasts and lunches if the schools still feed kids at all.<br /><br />http://www.essology.com/GrapicImages/XylitolGraph.jpgHank Robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07521410755553979665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-1193505012974727012011-11-14T12:53:57.216-05:002011-11-14T12:53:57.216-05:00Adding fluoride to salt is more expensive than to ...Adding fluoride to salt is more expensive than to water. I suspect (but don't know) that the resulting dosage would vary more because individual consumption varies more. The one advantage is that it might be easier for someone who wants to avoid it to find non-fluoridated (fluoridized?) salt than to buy bottled water or set up a reverse osmosis system.<br /><br />Overall I don't see an advantage. Either put it in the water or don't do it at all.Brianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09301230860904555513noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-22899980713391120542011-11-14T11:43:09.986-05:002011-11-14T11:43:09.986-05:00Thanks, Hank. I was just experiencing a rare minut...Thanks, Hank. I was just experiencing a rare minute of not worrying. ;-)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-1740746146893071382011-11-14T11:27:05.742-05:002011-11-14T11:27:05.742-05:00so, instead of fluoride, you could add a different...so, instead of fluoride, you could add a different species of bacteria to the water supply (grin):<br /><br />"Filling the ecological niches once dominated by Streptococcus mutans with less virulent species has also been proposed as a treatment method. The development of avirulent mutant strains of the bacterium shows promise as a pre-emptive colonizer, which would be introduced into the mouth before natural S. mutans colonization and occupy the ecological niche that would be available to virulent strains (Marsh 1994). Becker et al. (2002) found that Streptococcus sanguinis was present in the mouths of caries-free individuals, but was absent in the mouths of those with dental disease. The relationship between S. sanguinis and oral health could be exploited by the implantation of S. sanguinis strains before an initial diagnosis of caries. Alternately, a mutant strain of Streptococcus Salivarius has been shown to displace S. mutans from the mouths of caries-active rats and shows promise as a treatment for humans (Marsh 1994)...."<br />http://www.lurj.org/article.php/vol2n2/caries.xmlHank Robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07521410755553979665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-19945246859736841652011-11-14T11:23:38.901-05:002011-11-14T11:23:38.901-05:00http://www.lurj.org/article.php/vol2n2/caries.xmlhttp://www.lurj.org/article.php/vol2n2/caries.xmlHank Robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07521410755553979665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-49581256907260701072011-11-14T11:21:43.764-05:002011-11-14T11:21:43.764-05:00By the way, I recall reading somewhere that as wit...By the way, I recall reading somewhere that as with other ecosystems, the species coming in occupy niches in a predictable order. The infant starts off free of bacteria and begins to accumulate an ecosystem quite predictably; the particular one that causes tooth decay has only a limited opportunity to get established -- and if it's not transmitted, others that don't cause decay take that niche.<br /><br />Out of some hundreds (thousands?) of species occupying the mouth, that one's the problem. Block its success getting established in teeth with fluoride; block its transmission with xylitol.<br /><br />The tradeoff for society ('government') is the cost over time of having these problems, which include heart disease and stroke.Hank Robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07521410755553979665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-79387026696794487512011-11-14T09:34:24.673-05:002011-11-14T09:34:24.673-05:00In other water supply news, if you _do_ want somet...In other water supply news, if you _do_ want something to worry about:<br />http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-15639440<br />http://www.mv-voice.com/morgue/2005/2005_02_11.tce.shtmlHank Robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07521410755553979665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-87490118877019313612011-11-14T05:32:51.168-05:002011-11-14T05:32:51.168-05:00Or don't kiss your kid on the mouth? I always ...Or don't kiss your kid on the mouth? I always wonder why people do that, but maybe I'm too prudish.<br /><br />And don't buy table salt. Sea salt is much better/healthier. Mined salt is even better in my opinion.<br /><br />Brian, will you let us know what your water district board decides?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-267276045448698912011-11-14T00:19:22.869-05:002011-11-14T00:19:22.869-05:00whoah!
"... consumption of sugar free chewin...whoah!<br /><br />"... consumption of sugar free chewing gum sweetened with the naturally occurring sweetener xylitol, could reduce the transmission of harmful mutans streptococci (MS) bacterial from mother to child and thereby reduce the risk of dental caries in their children. Earlier published studies have demonstrated that prevention of colonization by these bacteria in early childhood can lead to reduction of dental decay and that mothers are the primary source of infection with mutans streptococci. These bacteria are passed from mother to child through everyday contacts such as kissing and tasting of food.<br /><br />The study measured the occurrence of tooth decay in children at the age of five years: dental caries (dmft) in the xylitol group was reduced by 71-74% as compared with the two control groups. Thus, the mothers' use of xylitol chewing gum prevented tooth decay in their children by significantly reducing the transmission of mutans streptococci from mother to child in early childhood.<br /><br />"The results of this study suggest that intervention against MS colonization may lead to better caries prevention than traditional preventative measures that concentrate on increasing the resistance of the teeth," stated Dr. Eva Söderling, the lead researcher of the Mother-Child study.<br /><br />http://www.essology.com/Transmission.htmlHank Robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07521410755553979665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-72758783133274151612011-11-14T00:14:49.642-05:002011-11-14T00:14:49.642-05:00> communicable disease
You rang?
https://www.g...> communicable disease<br /><br />You rang?<br />https://www.google.com/search?q=tooth+decay+bacteria+transmission<br /><br />> no tooth decay<br />Some people are lucky; some areas have naturally occurring fluoride levels that are protective. Your mouth may vary.<br />http://www.env.gov.nl.ca/env/waterres/cycle/groundwater/well/fluoride.htmlHank Robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07521410755553979665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-84524899370369296552011-11-13T22:57:52.788-05:002011-11-13T22:57:52.788-05:00Coby --- Other than the admonitions in the preambl...<b>Coby</b> --- Other than the admonitions in the preamble to the US Constitution, nothing comes to mind. However, there is the precedent of adding iodine [a deadly poison] to table salt; if adding florides to table salt work as well as adding to drinking water, using the table salt method seeems, on the face of it, superior.David B. Bensonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02917182411282836875noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-26574402425500643072011-11-13T20:10:12.662-05:002011-11-13T20:10:12.662-05:00Enough of fluorine- has as no one quantified the a...Enough of fluorine- has as no one quantified the aesthetic downside of banning bromides from over the counter remedies? <br /><br />Ineffectual as Bromo-Seltzer may have been as a headache remedy, and hepatotoxic to boot , it made the nation's shores more cheerful by providing a constant trickle of cobalt blue sea glass to the otherwise pastel eroded bottle supply.<br /><br />There ought to be a law mandating that the more useless the nostrum , the brighter the bottle, so as to wring an iota of return from suffering homeopaths to practice in our midst.THE CLIMATE WARShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02578106673226403151noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-88646541911398008622011-11-13T03:36:27.766-05:002011-11-13T03:36:27.766-05:00A bit of a googling suggests that some European na...A bit of a googling suggests that some European nations opted for salt fluoridation rather than water fluoridation - including Austria. I don't know if all salt contains a fluoride or if it's marked on the packet and consumers have a choice, but it could be that it's in a lot of processed food manufactured there. (Might explain the lack of teeth cavities in Austria if it's in all table salt, or if food manufacturers use fluoridated salt.)<br /><br />Makes you realise that these days of global food supply (especially processed food and soft drinks) there are probably lots of sources of fluoride - not just water and toothpaste.Souhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08818999735123752034noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-6614962629752992172011-11-13T02:55:52.490-05:002011-11-13T02:55:52.490-05:00BTW, I heartily recommend the link Chris S provide...BTW, I heartily recommend <a href="http://www.badscience.net/2008/02/foreign-substances-in-your-precious-bodily-fluids/" rel="nofollow">the link Chris S provided above.</a> It made me realize I misrepresented the body of research indicating efficacy of fluoridation. The case I discussed should not be taken as representative. The approaches are varied as are the alleged problems.<br /><br />That <a href="http://www.quackwatch.org/03HealthPromotion/fluoride.html" rel="nofollow">QuackWatch link</a> is very hard to take seriously. This time I read past "How Poisonmongers Work - The antifluoridationists' ("antis") basic technique is the big lie. Made infamous by Hitler, it is simple to use, yet surprisingly effective." but I still found no evidence of scientific thinking or seriousness of any kind. It is pure, over the top advocacy.cobyhttp://scienceblogs.com/illconsiderednoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-58844265104504678922011-11-13T01:36:59.276-05:002011-11-13T01:36:59.276-05:00I grew up on a farm, drinking well water. My siste...I grew up on a farm, drinking well water. My sister and I both had to have various fillings while we were growing up, but my brother never needed one until he was in his twenties. We used to joke that it was because he kept eating the brownies and cookies in the freezer, but I'm pretty sure I ate some too. We used Colgate toothpaste which may have had fluoride in it.<br /><br />Calgary water was fluoridated until within the past year when City Council voted to stop. Though I have lived in Calgary for decades and drunk the water, I still have to have fillings from time to time.Holly Stickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01137842937086115228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-55662864604182346182011-11-13T00:31:24.158-05:002011-11-13T00:31:24.158-05:00I have never had a cavity in over 50 years and hav...I have never had a cavity in over 50 years and have not lived in a flouridated water district. I don't drink soda pop either. I really enjoy my non flouridated tap water.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-6728746513929765372011-11-12T23:39:17.584-05:002011-11-12T23:39:17.584-05:00Just as anti-fluoridation activists hurt their cau...Just as anti-fluoridation activists hurt their cause denying topical fluoride reduces dental caries, so do pro-fluoride folks damage their credibility by exagerating the benefits of fluoridated water. The more recent and better studies which do find a benefit, find one on the order of .6 fewer cavities per person (I believe this is only demonstrable in baby teeth). So the anecdotes about everyone having tons of cavities until fluoride arrived are evidence that anecdotes are not scientific evidence and they are not evidence of anything else.<br /><br />The criticism of these studies claims that fluorideated water delays the eruption of baby teeth (which I think is not a controversial claim, but not sure...) and this is enough to explain the difference. There are many studies that have been unable to find a difference, though absence of evidence is not evidence of absense.<br /><br />Don't forget that there are plenty of major cities in developed countries (hello, Vancouver, my home town!) that do not have fluoridated water and they do not have piles of decayed teeth lining their streets. *If* the benefit is there, it takes carefully constructed studies and lots of statistical analysis to find it.<br /><br /><a href="http://rabett.blogspot.com/2011/11/to-fluoridate-or-not-to-fluoridate-that.html?showComment=1321093368708#c1015032046241414785" rel="nofollow">Neven's point above</a> is a good one to my mind. If you want to look at cost/benefit analysis of public policy options, I am very sure education about dental hygene and school programs that promote healthy food instead of junk food would get far more bang for the buck.<br /><br />Sources of fluoride for fluoridation programs vary, but the origin of the practice and many present instances do involve industrial waste products.<br /><br /><a href="http://rabett.blogspot.com/2011/11/to-fluoridate-or-not-to-fluoridate-that.html?showComment=1321059385426#c2647967225049952890" rel="nofollow">David Benson</a>, I think a communicable disease is in a different class of ethical question, there is a clear danger to the public to be balanced. Can you think of any other, more analogous precedent? I don't think vitamins of nutritional supplements are a serious contender, as no one claims that you have to have some fluoride in your body to survive, whereas vitamins and minerals, yes.cobyhttp://scienceblogs.com/illconsiderednoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-52614420310885824552011-11-12T21:26:40.112-05:002011-11-12T21:26:40.112-05:00Neven, I'm much the same age as Sou obviously....Neven, I'm much the same age as Sou obviously. Though I didn't live in the country but a city suburb. We still had milk delivered by the milkman refilling our billy on the front verandah, bread delivered still warm from the bakery by a bloke on a horsedrawn cart, chooks for eggs as well as veggies and fruit from the backyard. Homemade school lunches as well as all home cooked meals. No TV of course. We didn't get one until I was 15 or so, before that we visited neighbours for a communal viewing of Friday night tele for a few years. Fish'n'chips was a rare takeaway meal, usually on hot evenings on a trip to the beach to cool down. <br /><br />And our teeth were absolutely awful. When my children were born in the early 80s, we didn't have to take them along for regular fillings and extractions like I and everyone else in my school did. Fluoridation is a great boon to all of us. (Especially now that the evidence is accumulating that poor mouth condition is strongly associated with heart disease.) <br /><br />MinniesMumAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-17827172569780257992011-11-12T21:01:31.184-05:002011-11-12T21:01:31.184-05:00Neven - I'm afraid I don't fit your hypoth...Neven - I'm afraid I don't fit your hypothesis either - I grew up with extreme health-conscious parents (60s/70s) with no white sugar, wholemeal bread, no lollies, few cakes, home grown food, fresh (unpasteurised) milk. We were even given oral flouride tablets, which didn't seem to do much good (so much for that hypothesis) - although maybe my compatriots ended up even worse than me.<br /><br />Billy TAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16612221.post-78524756099739904462011-11-12T18:28:36.217-05:002011-11-12T18:28:36.217-05:00Re the cause of poor dental health - I've no r...Re the cause of poor dental health - I've no real idea, Neven. Have been assuming it's the lack of fluoridation back then. Haven't had much trouble since fluoridation was introduced. Could be partly the luck of the genes. Don't know. <br /><br />I lived in the same region when I was a child (next valley over) and the water here is very pure - probably few minerals of any kind. I doubt it has any natural fluoride. The main difference between today and back then is the use of fluoride in toothpaste and drinking water - and the greater abundance of junk food now.<br /><br />I worked as a dental assistant for a while when studying at Uni (this would have been in the late 1960s-early 70s). Only once did we have a visit from a woman who had no cavities. It was mind-blowing to see. I didn't know such a thing could happen. (IIRC she was from Germany.)<br /><br />Some children at school with me even had all their teeth pulled (while young children) and replaced with false teeth. Awful!<br /><br />I would have been less than 10 years old when I had my first filling. My niece's daughter had a problem with one of her teeth when she was just five. My niece is a healthy food, healthy living freak - even more so than my parents - but they were living in the hills and only had tank or bottled water, no town supply - so no added fluoride.<br /><br />PS - we need added iodine in this part of the world too, to avoid thyroid problems. It's added to table salt.<br /><br />(Is it possible that some of your food comes from places that have fluoride available in the water? Or is it added in your toothpaste? That could explain your good fortune.)<br /><br />PPS Apologies to all am wasting cyber space with non-scientific speculation. There are lots of studies on fluoridation and risks and benefits as Eli pointed out.Souhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08818999735123752034noreply@blogger.com